Author Topic: Boat ramp stuff  (Read 5119 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline AlohaDan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1428
Boat ramp stuff
« on: January 14, 2009, 09:22:20 AM »
Lot of mixed subjects. I address one that has been raised in other threads.

The use of boat ramps is open to all. As they should be for taxpayers.

Boat fees don't cover state harbor/ramp expenses. Deficits are picked up by all state tax payers.

Any cursory search on google will reveal this. For just one example see revenue bonds for capital improvements and outright general fund allocations for security expenses:

http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/session2008/commreports/HB2500_SD1_SSCR3400_.htm

 But it's no secret from newspaper reports that the state is trying to palm off harbor expenses to counties or private enterprise. Honokohou and I believe Kewalo, have been  prime targets.

Once the state manages to do so what happens to the boat fee fund? It will go elsewhere as it probably will anyway given the current economy deficits. Special funds are now being targeted for incorporation into the general fund pot.

http://www.westhawaiitoday.com/articles/2008/10/24/local/local03.txt

Also there are country ramps and parks (probably the ones in worse shape). County taxes , not boat fees are involved here. And your island county taxes support these facilities.  Note some county ramps missing in below citation.

http://www.hawaiiocean.com/Directories/Marina%20Facilities/index.html

This subject shouldn't be mixed with what happened. Given prior discussion I recommend Roc move this post and others to something like Small Craft Facilities and Ocean access.


Gave South Africa World Cup a run. Next up Brazil

Ahnkochee

  • Guest
Boat ramp stuff
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2009, 10:32:35 AM »
Lot of mixed subjects. I address one that has been raised in other threads.

The use of boat ramps is open to all. As they should be for taxpayers.

Boat fees don't cover state harbor/ramp expenses. Deficits are picked up by all state tax payers.


Danno, I beg to differ with you.  I worked for DLNR Boating Division for 14 years first as Construction and Maintenance Superintendent for Oahu District, then as Construction & Maintenance Foremen for Maui District, my experience and knowledge is first hand.  There are very few State Divisions that are special funded meaning their operation is NOT paid for by taxpayers, the DOT Airports Division, DOT Harbors Division, and DLNR Boating Division to name three.  DLNR/Boating makes more than enough money through mooring fees, gross income percentage from commercial operators, and cruise ship fees to be self sufficient with no additional monies needed from tax dollars.  DLNR/Boating's coffers were so full that Governor Lingle decided to raid it to finance other state projects which got the boating community in a uproar.  EVERY trailerboat is required to pay a annual ramp use & maintenance fee ($40 now) which kayakers are not.   Only those who pay this use & maintenance fee are technically allowed to use these ramps not any taxpayer who feels like it.  Some Harbor Agents let it slide if they see a kayaker launching from their ramps especially if ramp traffic not busy, but some Harbor Agents will drill you a new anal orifice if they catch you launching and you can be sited by DOCARE Enforcement Officers for launching regardless of how the Harbor agent feels.  These are State ramps I'm talking about and I'm not sure how DOCARE feels about the very few county ramps in existence which are usually in such lousy condition (Kailua Beach for example) that not even safe for kayak launching.  I would hate to be a kayaker launching ahead of a Ahi fishermen trying to get his boat in the water in a hurry during height of season especially his knowing that kayakers do not pay a penny to use or maintain the ramp.   Neighbor islands more laid back but still technically wrong to use a ramp without a trailer.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2009, 02:03:45 PM by Ahnko Honu »

Offline AlohaDan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1428
Boat ramp stuff
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2009, 04:46:56 PM »
Ji

Well difference of opinion.  :o :D

I'll try to get the published figures for you.

I note you skipped over County situation, but for the thread I propose let's try to include it, particularly for access which seems to de dropping like a rock for not only kayakers, but hunters, hikers, shore line fishermen, etc..

However, getting back to State DLNR funds and ramps, let's give Roc a chance to move these three posts. I know he's busy so so we can always do a copy paste in a couple of days if he's gone..

I think Small Craft facilities and Access merit a standalone thread.

Lot's of meat in the topic, and I don't want to capture the original thread and detract from lessons learned from this tragedy.


Gave South Africa World Cup a run. Next up Brazil

Ahnkochee

  • Guest
Boat ramp stuff
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2009, 07:33:43 PM »
Ji

Well difference of opinion.  :o :D


Aloha Danno, not a differance of opinion, I was the guy who was directly involved in the monies and how they were spent in routine use and maintenance of ramps, the buck stopped at me.  You can Google all you like but facts are facts.   Like I said before the county ramps were an area that was not my kuleana so I won't speculate, and only DOCARE can answer the questions concerning  jurisdictional enforcement matters there.  If any AH'ers want to take the chance and use state boat ramps to launch kayaks I cannot stop you but don't say you were never warned when you get cited by DOCARE officers when you do get busted.   ::)
« Last Edit: January 14, 2009, 08:15:35 PM by Ahnko Honu »

Ahnkochee

  • Guest
Boat ramp stuff
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2009, 10:14:31 PM »
im with you uncle and kailua boat ramp could really use some money for repairs. do you still have any connections to give that ramp some love?

When I was Superintendent I couldn't get the higher-ups to do anything about Kailua Ramp.  I even suggested that the State inquire about doing the county a favor and taking over the Kailua Ramp and relieve the County of maintenance woes there.   My suggestions fell on deaf ears.  This was back in '94 and nothing has happened maintenance wise since, the State and County caught in a perpetual pissing match.  I wish I still had a plans I had drawn up for improvements to the Kailua Ramp, and the report justifying the project.   Best they let me do was replace the swim-zone buoys.  DLNR/Boating Division is even more incompetent and corrupt than back then so don't expect anything positive from them concerning this area.  >:(

Offline killakine

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 571
Boat ramp stuff
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2009, 11:46:33 PM »
If i was a boat owner I'll be pissed off if i see people using the ramps with no ramp stickers indicating that they payed harbors and ramp fees. I know some boaters that hate it when homeless people an also some shore fisherman use the restroom. Some morning before the state worker can come in to clean the restrooms. The place is filthy and stink and with no hand towels from the night before. I know that the state workers should clean it, but to my knowledge
there is only one at the waianae harbor. Waianae harbor is on of the most used
harbors in the state and also the most neglect. They still don't have a fueling dock. We must remember that the trailer boaters have the raw end of the deal.
Not only do they pay ramp and harbor fees but also trailer registration and also safety check. When ever they fuel up they pay road taxes and all other taxes and the boat don't even use the roads. Remember that its called a small boat harbor. So if public and tax payer can use it. Have them pay harbor fees
also. All boater are also tax payers. We yak'ers can launch almost any place
why invade there space. 90% of the time a boater will be the one to rescue us
so i think we can cut them some slack. So with all that is happening one day
we will find ourself having to registers our yaks having to have the same safety
equipment like all boaters and even have somekind of dive flag on our yak's.
So think smart and be safe. Remember you not only put yourself in danger,
you also put the people who have to rescue you in danger.

Offline AlohaDan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1428
Boat ramp stuff
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2009, 10:26:17 AM »
Ji

Last comment here.

See :

http://www6.hawaii.gov/budget/FY%202009%20Executive%20Supplemental%20Budget/Budget%20in%20Brief/Budget_in_Brief_FY_09.pdf/view

Download and go to DLNR CIP budget $10 mil = General obligation bonds.

For others today's story on front page of West Hawaii Today. No malice by the wife. On the contrary.

http://www.westhawaiitoday.com/articles/2009/01/15/local/local02.txt




Gave South Africa World Cup a run. Next up Brazil

Ahnkochee

  • Guest
Boat ramp stuff
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2009, 11:12:39 AM »
I've already stated DLNR/Boating is special funded and had more than enough money in it's coffers to be self-sustaining that is until Governor Lingle decided to raid Boating Division funds to pay for other state projects thus the need for general obligation bonds.  Capitol Improvement Projects (CIP) have always been matched if not surpassed by Federal funding.  CIP monies do not pay for the routine maintenance of facilities, only the construction of new facilities or major improvements to existing.  Do you have a trailer boat?  If you did you would know that every year when you renew registration every trailer boater pays an additional $40.00 annually for a RAMP USE FEE (with sticker) which helps cover the maintenance of these State boat ramps.  Kayaks don't have to pay registration unless they are sail or motor powered, and don't pay a ramp use fee UNLESS they are trailered to the ramp with a current ramp use sticker on that trailer.  If you think you have the right to equal access to any and all facilities paid for in part by taxpayer money just because you are a taxpayer you are mistaken. The Harbor Agent, DOCARE Officer, or Ahi fisherman waiting to launch his boat while you block the ramp to assemble your AI will teach you the hard way.  Demanding access as a US taxpayer will not change the facts.  Even taxpayers have to play by rules.  You go ahead and take your chances launching your kayak from a State ramp but don't encourage others to do the same using misinformation unless you are willing to pay for their citations. 
Show some aloha to these trailer boaters instead of encouraging actions that will only alienate kayakers from them, these guys are most likely the ones who will respond and save your @zz when you get into trouble out in the deep blue.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2009, 11:17:47 AM by Ahnko Honu »

Offline AlohaDan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1428
Re: Boat ramp stuff
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2009, 09:03:03 PM »
Thanks Roc


Gave South Africa World Cup a run. Next up Brazil

Offline Makaio

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 655
Re: Boat ramp stuff
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2009, 12:07:28 AM »
Being both an avid boat fisher and kayak fisherman I have to agree with ahnko honu, I pay for the boat registration fee, plus the ramp fee, two totallly seperate fees.  Plus most ramps on oahu are crowded enough as is, for as few ramps as there are, there are even fewer that most boaters can actually use to launch their boat due to the poor maintenance and upkeep. Plus launching your yak from a boat ramp kinda defeats one of the main advantages of kayak fishing, ie- being able to cary your kayak yourself down to the water and launch from any remote place to get to those areas close to shore where the boats can't go.

Offline killakine

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 571
Re: Boat ramp stuff
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2009, 12:14:20 AM »
Amen to that!

Offline AlohaDan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1428
Re: Boat ramp stuff
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2009, 10:38:13 AM »
Ji

Don't shoot the messenger.

I'm clearly aware that boat guys pay fees for trailers . as well as  storage fees for use of harbor facilities.etc.  Special fund income is identified in various old budgets. I don't contend any of that.

But my point about general obligations bonds is correct as you admit. Further amplified by news this morning. I can understand your being upset about it, but I didn't do it. All I know is my taxes are involved, and I point that out. One could also argue supporting infrastucture for ramps is definitely part of the general taxpayer contribution.

And since your on Oahu you may have missed the stuff going on about Honokohou Harbor over the last  several years, potentially palming the facility off on a private party or the county. Kayakers need to pay attention on this point for reasons I explain below.

Some other things on Honokohau in particular.

Within about 25 yards of the western most ramp are over 200 canoes. But they like kayaks are not registered. They use the ramp all the time. Why shouldn't kayaks?

There are other public uses of harbor areas not connected with ramp usage, but lets skip that for the moment.

The Honokohau ramp is an ideal spot for lauching for several reasons not the least of which is access to fishing areas. For all but the hero dedicated yakman there is no access south to Kailua town for example, and north isn't much better.

Oahu posters with an island geologically million of years older then the Big Island have to realize access (likebeaches)is harder to come by than on Oahu. Not only geologically, but land owners(at Ranchos for example) denying passage, something else that needs to be discussed. Ramps often are the only spot to put in and get out safely. Another reason I included County ramps/parks in the discussion.

Regarding remote spots again, if spots are many miles apart the danger risk goes up when you have to get out fast due to weather, injury, etc.

Regarding Show some aloha to these trailer boaters instead of encouraging actions that will only alienate kayakers from them, these guys are most likely the ones who will respond and save your @zz when you get into trouble out in the deep blue.



Going 5-10 miles out I'm extremely aware of this (as should be evident from postings elsewhere regrading other subjects besides launching.) Where possible I launch from other then ramps. At Keauhou the small beach for example, or the old one next to the kayak rental store.. At Honaunau there are two ramps. The very old one used by canoes and the boat one. I use the old one. South Point when I know boats are launching I show up later after locals have gone. And when I do launch from a ramp like Honokohou I set up on the parking area (right opposite the canoes). Wheel the yak down. Return the cart to the truck, and launch. I'm generally quicker than most power boats getting in, and coming in I have never held anyone up much more than getting the cart, a minute or two. (The ramp handles two simultaneous launches/retrivals BTW so when busy things go fast).

I've never been sited over this. I don't know of anyone that has. Could be in DLNR rgs, but can't find ianything prohibiting it.

Which brings me to a subject Roc in his forward thinking has helped us arrive at  moving this subject to Etiquette

Ramp Etiquette if you use one.

a. If a nearby non ramp spot is available use it instead.

b. If you can, launch with one carry from your truck (probably simple rig or partner available) or

c. If you have to, rig out of the way and do a quick cart trip.

d. Don't take up parking spaces for trucks with trailers. I don't know about Oahu, but most of the Big Island ramp areas have signs for truck/trailer parking only. For remote unmarked areas like South Point move your truck so the trailer guys have an easy time backing in.

Another subject part of this discussion is potential kayak registration. If we use ramps, or ask for small ones to be built in normally non acessible areas how much could be raised in fees by boat registration? Would these be pissed away as Ji has pointed out in the past? Also there is a potential connection here BTW to future Fed fishing license requirements hooked to boat registration. See HFN discussions.


Gave South Africa World Cup a run. Next up Brazil

Ahnkochee

  • Guest
Re: Boat ramp stuff
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2009, 04:42:56 PM »
Ji
Don't shoot the messenger.
The use of boat ramps is open to all. As they should be for taxpayers.
Boat fees don't cover state harbor/ramp expenses. Deficits are picked up by all state tax payers.

Danno, you were not presenting yourself as just a lowly deliverer of someone else's message but as a fire & brimstone preacher with your own message  presenting opinion as fact which could get some of those listening into trouble.  What you state above is simply not true.  As I have stated in the past the enforcement of rules maybe be lax on neighbor islands due to geographic access limitations and light ramp traffic, but it does not change the fact that those who actually pay the annual $40.00 ramp use fee get to use the ramp.  The majority of state small boat harbors are built in ceded lands with OHA receiving annual lease payments from the state.  Canoes are allowed for cultural reasons and I'm sure if you check the various clubs canoe trailers they will have current ramp use stickers.  For the same cultural reasons canoe clubs are also allowed into the private Kaelepulu Pond for their practice runs without having to pay the annual maintenance fees that I pay for each of my boats.   14+ years ago I was made aware of ramp use limitations to paying trailer boaters by the Harbor agent of He'eia Kea harbor when he converged on kayakers at his ramp with DOCARE back up.  I have seen kayakers at several harbors here get warnings or citations on Oahu with He'eia Kea, and Ke'ehi/Sand Island ramps still fresh in my mind.  In my 12 years as Maintenance Foreman of Small Boat Harbors for Maui/Moloka'i/Lana'i I personally witnessed one kayaker chased off the ramp at Ma'alaea harbor, again reflecting the more relaxed mood of the neighbor islands but none the less still verifying the rules.
Bonds for CIP projects are a moot point as these monies are never used for routine maintenance of launch ramps, and have no bearing on ramp use rights that you try and state, this is a fact and as head of Maintenance on 4 islands for 14+ years it was my job to know these things.  If you think you know more then me, all state harbor agents, and all DOCARE enforcement officers about ramp use issues there's nothing I can do about that, but please don't voice opinions as facts to others especially when it can get others in trouble.

Offline AlohaDan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1428
Re: Boat ramp stuff
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2009, 06:59:35 PM »
Fire & brimstone? Never been accused of that before.

OK I'll change the part about open to all. I can only report what I see here, not elsewhere. BTW forgot to mention the canoes are OC-1's no licensed trailers involved.

On the tax issue we disagree. (Re your 1/12 4:12 for fine hairs). Let's leave it that.




« Last Edit: January 16, 2009, 07:08:35 PM by AlohaDan »


Gave South Africa World Cup a run. Next up Brazil

Ahnkochee

  • Guest
Re: Boat ramp stuff
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2009, 10:20:58 PM »
Danno, you stated that the fact that you are a taxpayer you and everyone else in the state who pays their taxes has free access to the ramps (damn those who actually pay the $40.00 for a ramp use permit).  IF OC-1s aren't following rules you'll follow their bad example and encourage others to do the same?  Two wrongs don't make a right.  This issue is in reality beyond an etiquette issue, it's a rules issue.  I wish you were only reporting what you saw there, but you made a blanket statement representing your opinions as facts, and I fear those who listen to you will only get themselves into allot of trouble with DOCARE especially the majority AH readers who live on Oahu where enforcement of harbor rules are carried out more diligently.  Please be more careful of what you present as fact in the future, I hate to see nOObs get discouraged after getting their kayaks confiscated due to accepting misinformation presented here even if such information was presented with the very best of intentions in mind. 
I have no idea what you are talking about regarding tax issues, I don't recall mentioning anything about taxes but I'm sure it's a moot point in regards to the issue of ramp access rights now being discussed.  I am happy for you if DOCARE and Harbor Agents are presently letting ramp use access rules slide for Kayaks and OC-1s on the Big Island but this is an exception and definitely not the rule, and I'm sure a few irate trailer boater's complaints will put an end to this turning of the blind eye especially when a kayaker ignorant to the rules gets injured at the ramp and tries to sue the state.  I'm sorry if you took offense at what I say but I say it to protect the less experienced kayakers from headaches at the least, and to help preserve the rather shaky relationship between trailer boaters and kayakers.

Offline killakine

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 571
Re: Boat ramp stuff
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2009, 10:54:02 PM »
I can just see it now. Kayaker gets hurt, sues state.
State requires all kayaker's to pay fees
regardless if you used the harbor's or not.

Mo money we don't need down the drain.
That's an extra money for power pro man!

Offline 40fathoms

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 776
  • Got Fish? No? Let's Get some den!
Re: Boat ramp stuff
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2009, 11:26:14 AM »
I have to agree with Uncle Ji, I own a Jet ski and the so called trailer fee is a misconception, it's actually called ramp fees. Fees that are asses for the use of the boat ramps. This is in addition to boat fees... I pay 45.00 Dollars for ramp fees and 55.00 Dollars for the jetski annually.

I have seen DLNR issue citation for boaters without current ramp fee stickers or boat stickers, as well as deny them from launching their boats.

Offline killakine

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 571
Re: Boat ramp stuff
« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2009, 12:00:37 AM »
Like i said, it's just a matter of time.
They did it with boater's
Now jet ski's
Soon to be kayak's

Can you imagine if you own two of the three
or even all three. That adds up to $300.
With the State hurting for money, they my even increase
the fees which they try to do before.
I was there when they tryed. They said the increase was to fix and repair
the harbor ramps and dock's. When we ask them were the money will be
going to "general fund " or somekind of harbor improvement fund.
They couldn't tell us. We ask them if they had somekind of plan's.
How long will the improvement be, five years, ten years, and which harbor
is first and which one was next and so forth. They couldn't tell us.
So we ask them were was all the millions that they generated from the fees
that they collected from boaters now. They couldn't tell us. We ask them
why did they let the harbors deterate to the point of no return and now
having to redo the whole harbor and now costing even more money to fix.
The couldn't tell us. >:(
My point is. If we let them have there way and make us pay a fee
we are throwing money down the drain. There will be no improvement.
It's just a way the state can make extra money for other project. The harbors are the last thing on there mind. I just Don't want them also to dictate were
we can launch from or categorize it as a water craft.
Can you imagine everyone launching from harbors only. :'( :'( :'( 



Offline killakine

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 571
Re: Boat ramp stuff
« Reply #18 on: January 18, 2009, 12:10:45 AM »
Try to stay away from the harbor if possible
Try not to give the state ideas >:(
The state is hungry for money right now.

Offline AlohaDan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1428
Re: Boat ramp stuff
« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2009, 08:46:08 AM »
Jerry

Missing boat sticker citations are part of DLNR regs requiring a registration number for power boats.

Yaks as human powered are not required to have them

I've got that online source to the regs somewhere. Let me see if I can dig it up.


Gave South Africa World Cup a run. Next up Brazil

 

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
October 18, 2017, 07:34:13 PM

Login with username, password and session length

AHTV

   

Makahiki 2016 Prize Sponsors

PENN








Ocean Kayak


Bending Branches




Knot 2 Kinky


Ocean Kayak


Scotty Products

Aquahunters Random Gallery Pic!

Rocket mahi and ono

Posted by on 02 Feb 2009

in
Hawaiian Yak Fish




0 comment(s)
anything